Learning gently

Don't have him around others who will tease him. That's the main benefit of homeschooling, being away from bullies. Don't bully or tease him and don't let anyone else do it either.

Unschooling really depends on helping kids gently get to their own learning in their own way. Wanting them to conform uniformly and on schedule isn't the way unschooling works.

An archived discussion with a bad name, but good info
photo by Jo Isaac

Simple fun

We just had our 33rd wedding anniversary last week. Someone wished me well on my page and said she hoped we did something fun. I said we had transplanted mint and pulled some weeds (or something), and she said (nicely, joking) she meant MORE fun. But maybe the way to stay happily married for many years is to have fun transplanting mint...

—Sandra Dodd
(married over 41 years now
and that mint is still happy)

SandraDodd.com/laundry
photo by Sandra Dodd
of some of that mint, off season

It's fall, today. In early summer, that mint is thick and happy. We planted it around three or four rocks. Over the years Keith has added more cool rocks.

A series of choices

Me/Sandra, in response to the mom of a youngish boy who sometimes agreed to do something, but when the time came, he was reluctant:

I do have a practical suggestion. Don't make it all or nothing. Say maybe "Let's just drive over there and see if you feel differently," or see if he's hungry or doesn't like his shoes or something plain and practical. Maybe he doesn't want to miss a program; can you record it? Maybe he doesn't want to go out in the cold. Maybe if he does get in the car and get there, maybe he'll want to go in. Maybe it's the being at rest that he doesn't want to change.

Maybe you could say "Let's go and watch a while, and then if you want to come home we can." If he gets all the way in and sees the other kids, he might want to stay, or he might not.

The final decision doesn't need to be made before you leave or even after you get there. Every moment can be another "pass or play" point.

Instead of looking at it as a "commitment," think of it as a series of choices.

UnschoolingDiscussion—Commitments, 2006
photo by Sandra Dodd
of Marty Dodd at 9 years old.
He finished the season, but didn't want to return because of the pressure other kids' dads were putting on them to WIN and to be aggressive.

What John Holt didn't know

NOTE FROM SANDRA: I was speaking, not writing, so when you get past that stuttery beginning, it might flow.

---

One thing that John Holt, when he was writing about Teach Your Own, he, too, had a curriculum in mind. He, too, was thinking, not "Teach a curriculum," but "Do this, instead of school, until school is out, and then you will be done, and it will be cool, you will have dodged the bullet, you will have missed out on the damage of school." That’s worthy all by itself.

But John Holt didn’t have any children. He didn’t actually do what he was writing about people doing. I respect him, I love his books, I am glad he did what he did. But then people come along, after that, and they do it. And then they shared that with each other, and then people did it better than they saw their families do it. Other families say, “Well, I wish I hadn’t done this; it was all right, but oh, I wish we had done this." And so entire lives of young people have been lived now since John Holt died, who didn’t go to school. And what those families discovered, that John Holt could not have known, is that if you live your life receptive to the learning around you, accepting of input, appreciative of the other people around you who know things, and of the resources around you, and trying not to be prejudiced against input like television and videogame and comic book, then what happens is, the parents' learning kicks back in. The parents, who probably had sort of calcified because of school, they soften back up, and they start to want to learn. And so they are learning along with their children, or in a parallel-play kind of way. They might all be in the same place all learning different things, sharing the good parts.

Family Bonding (recorded interview and transcript)
SandraDodd.com/familybonding
photo by Sandra Dodd
of Keith and Holly, 2015

Checking and comparing

Someone asked:

Do you still look at standards for certain grade levels only so that the state leave you alone or do you just wait until they say something and show them what your kid can do?

Sandra:

I used to look from time to time at APS (Albuquerque Public Schools) Expected Competencies, or the World Book list or something similar, but now I look maybe every two years.

In New Mexico they're not going to ask you to show what your child can do. And when you're with your child in busy learning-situations every day, you'll see the learning just take off!

That was my 2002 answer, when my youngest was 10. I quit checking "should be" lists at some point. We were fortunate to live where that was a good option.

SandraDodd.com/questions
photo by Gail Higgins

Deschooling...is to sit and think

Nicole Kenyon wrote, December 25, 2020:

My husband came home the other day saying he had the perfect Christmas present for our 9 year old son - a gel blaster toy gun. He was beaming and so happy. My first thought was "oh no, not a gun!" ... [and then I've left out the angsty part, and the Swiss-army...gun story, and the mom's transformative thoughts...]

Deschooling for me is sometimes not to act straight away but to sit and think about it. Is it a pattern the media has fed you? Where is the "no way" coming from?

While I wrote this story my husband and child are down in the living room and enjoying life, making little cardboard targets, laughing and having a great time. ❤

—Nicole Kenyon

Toy Guns
SandraDodd.com/peace/guns
You can read what I left out, and if you can get to facebook you can read (linked from that page) comments at the time.
photo by Supriya and Aseem's Mom

Quickly but gradually...

Instead of just going from lots of control to "do whatever you want," a really sweet way to do it is quickly but gradually. Quickly in your head, but not all of a sudden in theirs. Just allow yourself to say "okay" or "sure!" anytime it's not really going to be a problem.

If something isn't going to hurt anything (going barefoot, wearing the orange jacket with the pink dress, eating a donut, not coming to dinner because it's the good part of a game/show/movie, staying up later, dancing) you can just say "Okay."

And then later instead of "aren't you glad I let you do that? Don't expect it every time," you could say something reinforcing for both of you, like "That really looked like fun," or "It felt better for me to say yes than to say no. I should say 'yes' more," or something conversational but real.

The purpose of that is to help ease them from the controlling patterns to a more moment-based and support-based decision making mindset. If they want to do something and you say yes in an unusual way (unusual to them), communication will help. That way they'll know you really meant to say yes, that it wasn't a fluke, or you just being too distracted to notice what they were doing.

SandraDodd.com/eating/control.html
photo by Cátia Maciel

Aversion and motivation

Bob Collier wrote:

After Pat quit school, he refused to read a book. He hates them. Thank you school for teaching my son to hate reading books. My son has never read a book since school and that was five years ago. He's had not even one minute of a reading lesson since school. Yet his reading is excellent. He developed his reading skills from reading videogame manuals and web pages of cheats and walkthroughs and from videogames themselves, some of which have an enormous amount of text in the gameplay that you need to be able to read to play at all.

Pat's motivation for developing his reading skills came not from being told it was something he needed but from his own understanding of how it would help him get what he wanted.

There's no more powerful form of motivation, probably.

—Bob Collier
(whose son left school at seven)

SandraDodd.com/game/reading
photo by Gail Higgins

Healing and replenishing

Shan Burton wrote:

Food you want, served to you by someone who loves you and brings it to you with a smile and a hug, has magical powers to heal and replenish the soul as well as the body.

—Shan Burton

SandraDodd.com/serviceResponse
photo by Robyn Coburn

Thinking, clearly and confidently

Writing is thinking clearly. For unschoolers writing will be helped by a kid having the confidence that if someone asks him about a movie or the lyrics of a song, that person will listen to his report, and to his opinion, and if he's misheard the words or misunderstood the plot, that they will help him understand it.

a nice match for Untangling Ideas, but the quote is from Seeing Writing
photo by Jihong Tang

Ask yourself "why?"

Robyn Coburn wrote:

Every time you feel the urge to control a choice, you can ask yourself "why?" and begin to question the assumptions (or fears) about children, parenting, learning and living joyfully that you are holding on to.

—Robyn Coburn

SandraDodd.com/option
photo by Sandra Dodd

Words might kinda hurt you

Heather Booth wrote:

One of the things that helped when I started unschooling was becoming aware of the words I used. The clearer I became in my thoughts and the more aware of the impact of my words, the better I was at being an unschooling parent. I want to discuss with my group the power of words. "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch" and "Say yes more" are great phrases to get you going in the right direction but if you are still saying "have to" or "junk food " or "screen time" then you're stuck in negative thoughts.

—Heather Booth

Weed Away Words
photo by Sandra Dodd

---

To any non-English speakers who don't get the title, we have an old saying that "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." The post's name is in the rhythm of the end of that; it has scansion.

Quiet enough to hear

Sarah Thompson wrote:

They don't need my direction much of the time, but they need me to pay attention to what is happening *in case* I'm needed. I need to be quiet so I'm not filling up their world with my noise, and so that *I* can hear as well.

—Sarah Thompson

SandraDodd.com/quiet
photo by Susan Gaissert

Small steps

Good bits lifted from a 2015 post:

Too often “do the best you can” is used to excuse letting things slide.
Think more about the children than about how you feel about thinking about them. It will help you when they feel better.

...read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch...

Don’t think you can change all at once, but if you see how much difference small steps can make, perhaps you can focus on not making anything worse, and stepping gently but steadily toward a more confident presence.

—Sandra
(original)

Small, simple steps
photo by Janine Davies

Look directly; join in

Karen James wrote:

When you look at your children, see *them*, not the ideas of peace, joy, success or failure. Notice what your children are engaged in. Join them when you can. If one of your children is cutting paper, quietly join in, even if only for a moment. When another child is playing Lego on the floor, get down there and put a few pieces together with her. One girl is drawing, do some doodles. One girl is playing Minecraft, notice what she's building. Ask her about it (if your question doesn't interrupt her). As you join your children you will begin to get a sense for what they enjoy. Build on what you learn about them.

—Karen James
(from a longer original)

Karen listed two links, in the post quoted above:
SandraDodd.com/breathing
and
SandraDodd.com/badmoment
photo by Cátia Maciel

Optimistic reality

Sometimes people say, "Anyone can unschool." And I always cringe when they do that, because the same kind of people who write or say things like that in public tend not to be the people who are going to stick around and walk people through it, and help other people do it. It just sounds good, it’s cheery, it’s inclusive, and it's wrong.

SandraDodd.com/whocanunschool
Who Can Unschool?
(short sound file, and transcript)

photo by DenaireNixon

Calm and calming

Sandra Dodd:

If there is more resentment and negativity than there is love and sweetness, that family is not succeeding at unschooling, in my opinion. It's not about "always" or "never." It's about preponderance.

Laura Zurro:

Sandra, can you explain what you mean by calm?

Sandra Dodd:

Calm is calm. Not frantic, not excited, not frightened or frightening. Calm, like water that is neither frozen nor choppy.

Calm is possessing the ability to think, to consider a situation without panic.

Calm is not perpetually on the edge of flipping out.

Alex Polikowsky:

Laura, I think it is when parents can remain calm under stress. I had to work on that sometimes. My oldest used to have huge tantrums and I would lose my calm. When I learned to remain calm I was much more helpful to him.

quote from Who Can Unschool?

More calming ideas
photo by Cathy Koetsier

Q&A—Agenda

Question:

Are we teaching anything or learning side by side or allowing them to self express?

Sandra:

Those aren't your only choices. They're learning, we're learning, we're all expressing ourselves, and when life is very rich and lush, learning grows like crazy.

Question:

Can you go into detail about the idea of making things available and having an agenda?

Sandra:

Is "making things available" a reference to dance and karate classes and social opportunities, or to toys and music and books and cash and games? We've tried to give our kids lots of access to people and places and things. The agenda was that they would learn and be happy.

SandraDodd.com/panel
photo by Cátia Maciel

Let them live THEIR childhoods

Someone (who was against video games) wrote:

Being exposed to new stuff is what will generate new interests.

I responded:

If they're being "exposed" to new stuff just to generate new interests, though, they could easily decide to resist and avoid the new stuff, long for video games, and not trust or desire time with mom.

Wanting kids to do what mom envisioned her own ideal childhood to be is a trap to be avoided. Don't try to get them to live YOUR missed childhood. Let them live theirs, or they will miss both.

How important is your child?
photo by Alex Polikowski, of a computer her son built, with her help, when he was younger. That son is grown and an engineering student now.

Tricked by "knowledge"

Meredith Novak wrote:

A great deal of parenting "wisdom" is made up of things "everyone knows" because everyone repeats them back and forth, over and over. Like "you have to go to school to learn" and "children need rules". Some of the things "everyone knows" are completely wrong, but because "everyone knows" them, it's very, very difficult for people to change their attitudes even in the presence of evidence to the contrary.

It was really shocking for me to discover just how much of what I "knew" was a result of that repetition. I accounted myself an intelligent, thoughtful person, with strong "alternative" viewpoints, but most of what I thought I knew about parenting was based in a kind of cultural conditioning. The ideas in my head weren't my own. That's humbling.

—Meredith

SandraDodd.com/sugar
photo by Sandra Dodd

How (and why) to help kids

I would help my kids with anything they needed help with, if I had the time and patience. When I didn't do so, I wasn't being the best mom I knew I could be.

I read video game directions to them just as I read books to them or song lyrics or cereal boxes or menus. I assisted them in the world until they chose to function without me. They still do ask for help sometimes, of other sorts, because they trust me to help, so it was an unforeseen investment in the future of our relationships.

Holly played a game called Harvest Moon quite a bit before she could read. I made her some charts to help, and I would come and read, and from printouts of internet hints and details, I made her a booklet so she could decide which crops to plant, and printed out a calendar of the Harvest Moon year, because there are seasons and festivals that factor in to decisions sometimes.

SandraDodd.com/panel
Unschooling Panel Follow-Up (HSC 2007)

photo by Sandra Dodd
of my kids' actual things

Two new views

To get to the kinds of relationships being advocated here, a mom needs to let go of many things, two of which are the image of the person she wanted to be separate from her children, as though she didn't have children at all, and then get rid of the vision of her children as ideal mother-worshipping accessories.

SandraDodd.com/change/growth
photo by Tam King

Competitive efficiency

One problem that comes up is efficiency. The idea of the glory of efficiency can be a problem. Because people get competitive, we’re all keeping track of how quickly we got into university and how soon we got out. Or how many minutes we take to get dinner on the table. “Oh, well, I can do that meal in 30 minutes!” “Well, I can do that meal in 20 minutes!”

Unschooling isn’t like that at all, even in the long term it’s not about the completion of a project at all. It’s about becoming the sort of people who see and appreciate and trust that learning can happen. And who can travel with children, not just drag them along or push them along, but who can travel with children along those interesting paths together not until you get there, but indefinitely.

And for beginning unschoolers that sounds also a little esoteric, a little foofy. And not solid. They want to know what do I do when the kids wake up in the morning? So, the beginning information is very often, “What do I do?” But the information that will get people from the beginning to the intermediate is why. Why do we do this?

SandraDodd.com/parentschange
photo by Colleen Prieto

Depth and breadth

Sink-Like-a-Stone Method:

Instead of skimming the surface of a subject or interest, drop anchor there for a while. If someone is interested in chess, mess with chess. Not just the game, but the structure and history of tournaments. How do chess clocks work? What is the history of the names and shapes of the playing pieces? What other board games are also traditional and which are older than chess? If you're near a games shop or a fancy gift shop, wander by and look at different chess sets on display. It will be like a teeny chess museum. The interest will either increase or burn out—don't push it past the child's interest.

When someone understands the depth and breadth of one subject, he will know that any other subject has breadth and depth.

From "Disposable Checklists for Unschoolers"
SandraDodd.com/checklists
scanner image by Sandra Dodd

Compassion spreads

I didn’t know they would be so compassionate.

Partly they weren’t taught to be cold, by school prejudices.
Partly, they have had a gentle life, and they NOTICE harshness.

Being compassionate about kids' changes can help affect how adults respond to their own and each others' needs and changes.

SandraDodd.com/unforeseen
(notes for a presentation in 2005)
photo by Cally Brown

Angels and chickens

Knowing I wanted to use this photo of Lydia Koltai's daughter and a favorite chicken, I pulled up my site search and put in "angel" and "chicken," partly as a joke—thinking I might get a quote with one of them.

Up came the page on cakes. Well, then! I invite you to go there and read the brief story of how my young boys, during a viewing of Spartacus in 1994, helped me discover one of the coolest things of my whole life—that the candles on birthday cakes, and the cakes themselves, are sacrificial offerings. Also they're sweet, and fun. There's light. There are wishes. There is celebration.

Cherish those things.

SandraDodd.com/cake
photo by Lydia Koltai

Seeing more paths

Ben Lovejoy wrote:

The difficulty of having so many rules in your life is not that you can’t get things done; it’s that you find it hard to do things truly on your own. If you’re constantly told what to do, when to do it, and how to do it, how will you react when the people who’ve always done the telling aren’t around to do so anymore? How will you develop your own decision-making process with someone else’s rules constantly weighing in? People sometimes have a hard enough time trying to figure things out; but adding additional roadblocks only narrows the number of paths that someone can take. Rules become those roadblocks because they’re normally established for the purposes of controlling other people or events.

—Ben Lovejoy

SandraDodd.com/lovejoy/norules
"No Rules-Sir, Yes Sir"
photo by Cathy Koetsier

Ultimately...

If parents want to be unschoolers, they need to figure out how to be better parents, because it's the relationship between the parents and children that ultimately makes unschooling work.

SandraDodd.com/peace/becoming
photo by Roya Dedeaux

As understanding grows

Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

It usually takes a long time before people new to unschooling stop looking for new rules to replace old ones. The more people are discouraged from skimming a surface understanding of unschooling, discouraged from relying on meaningless reassurances that going through the motions of unschooling with crossed fingers and assurances everything will be fine, the better for their kids.

Unschooling is a paradigm shift for most everyone. That shift doesn't happen by acting like other unschoolers. It comes slowly, bit by bit, as understanding of what unschooling is grows.

—Joyce Fetteroll

From Always Learning; third post down

or at the current groups.io site
photo by Jihong Tang

Learning/problem solving

Don't discount the learning/problem solving that is going on while our kids play video games. I can't think of anything else that he does that engages his mind so thoroughly and completely—that gets it moving and thinking and wondering. And that can only be a good thing.🙂

—Stephanie E.

The rest of Stephanie's account is great; I had a hard time choosing a short quote: SandraDodd.com/game/gamecube
photo by Sarah Peshek

Direction

Be glad to find things in life that can help you choose a good direction.

SandraDodd.com/direction
Photo by Charles Lagacé, in Nunavut.
Marie-France Talbot, the mom, wrote:
"Snow inuksuk (inuktitut for person subtitute) made by my husband and sons. They are usually made of rocks and they indicate direction."

Learning how

Sara P. wrote:

This is still an ongoing process for me. I had to re-train myself in a lot of ways. I had to learn a new language. I had to learn to SEE again. I had to learn how to communicate. I had to learn patience. I had to learn how to put others first. .....WOW! Sometimes an old thought will creep in. Sometimes I find myself answering a question in *teacher tone*...but it is so few and far between, and I am so quick to catch it that nobody ever notices except me! LOL!

—Sara P.

SandraDodd.com/change/stories
photo by Denaire Nixon

Knowing needs

Anna Black (in Australia, so the cookies and biscuits were same and sweet):

Today we were driving home from the library discussing what we would eat. Usually we go to a cafe after the library, but we are saving money for an aquarium visit on Wednesday so I offered to make milkshakes and cinnamon butter cookies at home, which both kids love. My six year old was enthusiastic, but then said, "I think I'm too hungry for biscuits. I'd like something more filling and not sweet." She ended up having a bowl of tuna and mayonnaise, followed by a milkshake. I am so glad she can listen to what her body needs and choose accordingly.

Sandra, responding to that tuna story:

When kids don't get enough sweets, their bodies need sweets. When sweets are there, but their parents say "no," then their souls need sweets, and love, and attention, and positive regard. When sweets are treated sweetly, then children can choose tuna over sweets.

SandraDodd.com/eating/sweets
photo by Cátia Maciel

How does it balance out?

When children choose their foods, they will choose things you didn't expect!

SandraDodd.com/eating/balance
photo by Sandra Dodd

Unusual but doable!

If a family is looking for rules and passivity, they can create a lifetime of it. If a family wants joy and learning, the creation is a bit more difficult and unusual but doable!

SandraDodd.com/zombies
photo by Amber Ivey

Surprise and disbelief

This was written when it happened. Holly Dodd (born in 1991) was twelve years old, and I read her something a mom had written.

If my kids had their way, they'd go barefoot outside of their own yard, run in the street between cars, never take baths, never eat their veggies and instead opt for chocolate cake every meal, mistreat animals, burn down the house playing with matches, never go to bed, never brush their teeth, etc.

I read that to Holly and she was speechless. Seriously mouth-open disbelief. Then she asked "WHY would they burn the house down with matches?"

"The only reason her house is not burned down is because she has a rule against playing with matches."

"So she can't even say 'You can play with matches but only in the front driveway'?"

"Nope."

"So they'll never go to bed because they'll never get tired unless she tells them they're tired?"

She asked me to read it to her again. I did. She looked at it and looked at me and said with more feeling, "Why the hell would they run between cars in the street!?"

SandraDodd.com/strew/ifiletholly has commentary on that.

[other dire things children might do if parents let them]
photo by Kim Jew Photography

Valuing Scooby-Doo

Colleen Prieto was talking to her son Robbie, who was nine, about "Frankenstorm." Below is Colleen's account:

He thought for no more than a second, and then very excitedly told me:

"Mom, Frankenstein is not evil. People just think he's evil but he's not - he's just trying to be good even though he's failing. Even though I haven't read the book or saw the movie if they made one, I know that pretty much from Scooby Doo. So we have nothing to worry about with the hurricane if now it's Frankenstorm because Frankenstein is good. If we were supposed to be scared, then they should have picked a better name!"

Many, many times in my daily life with my son, I am reminded that there is value in so very many things—be those things Scooby Doo or Pokemon or Star Wars or Harry Potter or 1,000 other "easy to criticize" forms of media or entertainment. Life is so much more fun when you look to the happy parts, look for the good, and keep an open mind.

Scooby-Doo, Frankenstein, and a Big Storm
photo by Sandra Dodd

Making it work well

A mom named Angela wrote a long e-mail to all of her relatives, in 2003, and here is part of it:

My job in the capacity of homeschooling and parenting in general is to provide a loving, rich, nurturing environment and lots of guidance. Lots of exposure to important and interesting things about our world and the past. Setting good examples for reading, researching, and finding out new things every day. Imparting a sense of discovery and fascination about so many things about our existence in this life. Paying a lot of attention and noticing when my kids need something, or want to learn more about something without pushing them into my own agenda. With my tendency to be dramatic about such things, these goals are actually accomplished rather simply and beautifully.

—Angela

SandraDodd.com/relatives/responding
photo by Nicole Kenyon

"It seems miraculous."

Sandra Dodd:

One of my favorite pages, on my site, is my collection of people saying they felt like they were unschooling and then something changed and they "got it." (sandradodd.com/gettingit)

People are saying things like "It seems miraculous" and "It is amazing how far reaching the effect was."

So this is part of why I'm uncompromising in my position about what does and what doesn't help.

When people want to dilute unschooling, I object.

Marta Pires:

I'm glad you're not willing to compromise.

Sandra Dodd:

When people want to devalue, granulate and scatter unschooling, they will keep people from reaching those miraculous-seeming and far-reaching results.

Alex Polikowsky:

And even more important is for those who think just doing nothing is the same as unschooling. I am talking disconnected, somewhat neglectful parents who may be sweet and all but still have not gotten it and that leaves kids without a real present partner they can rely on for support and guidance.

"Getting It" (chat transcript, 2014)
photo by Theresa Larson