Simply safer

Sometimes I would say "Hold on to something! I'm going to hold on to Marty!" so that it wasn't just a thing 'kids had to do,' but was a safety condition of crowdedness.

Now that I'm older, I still sometimes want to hold on to one of my kids when we're out, but now it's because I'm safer if they help me. Holly has held my hand crossing streets just this year, and she's 21. Marty and Kirby have helped me down stairs and off of steep curbs.

It's not just for children.

---

Update:
Holly is in her 30s, and still helpful to me and her dad. She, or I, or Keith will hold the hand of a grandchild, pretty often (Holly's nieces).

SandraDodd.com/safe
or
Being a safe place
photo by Holly Dodd

TV, games, or any video media

Years back, a group of families traded babysitting. Kirby had a favorite family to visit, where there were several kids who knew and liked him. When interviewed ten years later, I responded:

When Kirby was four or five, they had a Nintendo and we didn't, but [they] kept it up in the closet. Once Kirby played it, he always wanted to play it when he went over. Our simple solution to that was to buy him a Nintendo. After that, when he went to their house, he played in the yard.

They only used their TV for the Nintendo (when it was out, for a measured session) or for videos (sometimes, not much). When those kids came to our house, they only wanted to watch TV.... If TV has never been limited or demonized, it will never be so mesmerizing.

There is another factor that will make it mesmerizing for children: depression and a need to escape. Kids who hate their lives are better off focusing on the TV so strongly that they don't even see the wall behind it. Sometimes it's their only way out of the room. ... But if the TV is just one of a myriad of interesting things, and the room is a happy place, and there are others watching TV and it will lead to conversations, singing, research, drawing, play-acting and dress-up, it's not so mesmerizing.

SandraDodd.com/screentime.html
photo by Sandra Dodd, of Kirby (middle)
playing with a five-year-old, in 2014 or so

---

That day, what came out to the interviewer was "Kids who hate their lives..." but any kid who is stressed and stuck might need such an escape; it's not unhealthy.

Grandparents might worry

To a question about elderly grandparents of young unschoolers, I told this, of my mother-in-law:

When Kirby, my oldest, was seven or so, his grandmother pressed me at dinner in a restaurant with this: "Are you planning to have him tested?"

"No."

"How will you know he's not behind?"

I was sitting there surrounded by relatives, and Kirby was there looking at me. I said, "I know he IS behind in some things, and he's ahead in some things. So are the kids at school." And I put food in my mouth. And that was that.
. . . . Simply saying, "Thanks, we'll keep that in mind" can go a long way toward soothing worried relatives.

SandraDodd.com/mha
photo by Sandra Dodd
of my kids and their paternal grandmother
in those days, 1993 or so

Consider saying 'yes' more

Clare Kirkpatrick, responding to a new unschooling mom in 2015:

Consider saying 'yes' more often. Don't just say 'yes' without thought 'because some unschoolers told you to'. But *consider* saying 'yes' more often—in each instance in which you would normally say 'no', ask yourself 'why not yes?' And really pick apart (in as appropriate a time-frame as possible) why you would say 'no'. Is it because a 'yes' would feel frowned upon by others? Is it because you've always said 'no'? If you find yourself saying 'no' to the same things time and time again, then do a bit more deeper work on that issue. There may be something getting in your way you need to unpick— some cultural conditioning; some unhelpful and possibly untrue ideas about children.

Don't put yourself under loads of pressure with this...just work on questioning your 'nos' and 'yesses' in more detail, more mindfully.

—Clare Kirkpatrick

SandraDodd.com/yes.html
photo of Kirby Athena Dodd with her grandpa, Keith,
Halloween 2020

The whole set of everything

We didn't have problems with our unlimited turns, but it's because nobody ever played longer than he really wanted to just to keep another kid from getting on. Not even nearly. If Kirby knew he wanted to play for a really long time, he would offer Marty a turn, knowing Marty couldn't last so long. Sometimes I would appeal to one of them to trade out, but it was for real reasons every single time. "Kirby has to go to karate, so can he go now and you can play all the time he's gone?" or "Holly's pretty sleepy anyway, and wanted to play Zoombinis. Can she have her turn soon?"

As with so many other things (every other thing, maybe) in our lives, though, it wasn't that single slice that "worked," it was the whole set of everything. They trusted me because I had spent years being trustworthy. They knew there was no secret agenda, and that I really did want them to all have fun things to do, and that they WOULD get to be on the computer uninterrupted, soon.

---

That was in the dial-up days. The world is better now, with more computers in homes, with wifi, with tablets. At the link below you can also read how Pam Sorooshian handled sharing a different way, when she had three children at home.

SandraDodd.com/sharing
Helping Children Share
photo by Sandra Dodd
(re-used, because it's from the days of the writing)
___

Learning with and from kids

from a set of questions going around in 2009:

Question:

What ways have you found to continue your own learning? What kinds of things have you gotten interested in since having kids?

Sandra Dodd's response:

My kids have introduced me to music, movies, games and humor I wouldn't have known otherwise. It's been wonderful. Kirby moved nearly two years ago, but he still sends me recommendations for things to see and hear. I've met lots of unschoolers and their children, and corresponded with 20 times as many; from them I've learned more and more about unschooling.

SandraDodd.com/learning
photo by Janine Davies
(or a camera in a theatre lobby)

---

I tagged it "costumes, but it was a board with cutouts for them to stick their faces in, so... not sure how to tag it. I first learned about the musical "Cats" from Roxana Sorooshian, and then Holly Dodd, different aspects.

Conversations and interactions

The middle of a longer article:

They grew up with exposure, context, experiences and knowledge of those things mathematics is designed to describe. Our oldest son, Kirby, worked in a games store from the time he was fourteen, and was running tournaments for Pokemon, Magic the Gathering and other such structured strategy games, in the store and at hotels in town for several years. The knowledge required to play those games and even more to organize, judge and score tournaments, is huge.

When Kirby was 18 he took his first math class, at the community college. Like a musician who can't read music, he was baffled at first, but once he understood the notation, he soared, and had the highest test score in the class.

To some people reading this, it might seem there was no "higher math," but what we have done is create a home in which algebraic thinking is a standard part of conversations. Our interactions are analytical and involve factors and projections. They see the concepts and they use them.

SandraDodd.com/math/unerzogen
(There's a link there to the published German version.)
photo by Belinda Dutch

Sleep, choices, jobs

[A] common question is whether someone who grew up without a schedule and a bed time and could ever hold "a real job." The assumption, I think, is that "real jobs" require getting up very early and at the same time every day. Marty did that for over a year when he worked at the grocery store near us. He worked Monday through Friday at 6:30 a.m. He had no problem with that schedule.

Looking up through the list of jobs, I will give as many shift-starting-times as I can remember, and you might wonder if someone who had grown up with a bed time and a regular schedule could ever hold a job.

AM

6:30 8:00 9:00 10:00 11:00

PM

1:00 3:00 4:30 5:00 6:00

---

Since this was written, the starting-times of jobs for my kids has gone around the clock, with Kirby starting sometimes at 11:00 at night (at Blizzard, like a hospital graveyard shift), and beginning at 5:00 a.m. (one of his computer support jobs when he moved back to Albuquerque). When Marty worked stocking shelves at Target, at Christmas season, he was there at 4:00 a.m. a time or two. Probably more.

SandraDodd.com/jobs/bigbook
photo by Janine Davies

Hobbit age of majority

Yesterday our youngest turned 33 years old. As I write this, her brothers are at her birthday party. Kirby is providing karaoke.

They are all in their thirties. Kirby will be in his 30s until late summer of 2026. He has been married for eight years, and Marty for nearly a decade.

In 2007, I wrote this:

Our family is experiencing a sort of magic window. As of November 2, our children (who are no longer children) have attained a set of momentous ages: 21, 18 and 16. This alignment ends on January 14, when Marty turns 19, but for a couple of months we have the only and last set of landmark years we'll ever have.

Our two boys are at the traditional ages of majority in different ways, in different places and times. Kirby is a man. Marty is a junior man. Our baby and only girl is "sweet sixteen."

The memories of them at all their ages are like sweet ghosts around me.

SandraDodd.com/magicwindow
photo by Sandra Dodd

Photos by, or art by, or mentions of Holly Dodd in other posts

Choices and learning

Each child is an individual. If you let them choose from many foods, they won't eat things that make them sick, or make them feel bad.

If you tell them in advance what "will" make them feel better and what "will" make them feel bad, #1 you could be very wrong, and #2 they are NOT learning on their own about food. They're learning how to appease mom.

SandraDodd.com/food
photo by Kirby Dodd

Quote is from an online text chat on food and eating.

Philosophy and priority

Questions come up about how a parent can help teens do things they want to do. Here is an example from when I had two teens and one nearly a teen.

It has to do with philosophy and priority. I think the way I discuss whether one of my teens can go to a movie or not under the circumstances of the moment is as true and deep a life-building experience as when he asks me what squares and square roots are about.

2024 note: Truer and deeper than facts that can be discovered anywhere, anytime. Looking back, I see its importance more clearly.

One day we had from seven to seventeen kids here, in various combinations and not all at once. It was a madhouse. Seven was my low count because there are still seven here at the moment. At one point two were gone and were coming back, one was half-expected (and did show up) and Marty wanted to go to the dollar movies to see "School of Rock" with a subset of the day's count. Holly didn't want to go; her guest from England did. Kirby half wanted to go; the girls coming back wanted to see him particularly. So the discussion with Marty involved me helping him review the schedule, the logistics of which and how many cars, did he have cash, could he ask Kirby to stay, could we offer another trip to that theater the next day for those who'd missed it today, etc. I could have said "yes" or "no" without detail, but it was important to me for it to be important to Marty to learn how to make those decisions. Lots of factors.

That's part of my personal style of radical unschooling.

Today: The day this is scheduled to go out, Keith and I will have three grandkids from 8:00 to 1:00, and then the other two at night. There are logistics involved. The oldest grandchild is being paid to come back and help at night. Drivers, food, activities, re-staging between... Same goals as in the 2003 story above—fun, peace, contentment.

From longer writing, third comment at
SandraDodd.com/unschool/radical
photo by Kim Jew Studios
in those days, but not that day

If mathematics is easy for a person...

Disclaimers: Unschooling doesn't ensure mathematical ability.

I wrote this before Marty got a degree in economics. They were 18 or older before taking any classes, and only needed to pay for the books.

---

My kids all caught up with formal math in a semester or two of community college. Marty did up to calculus. Kirby only took one class but makes use of math all the time in his work and play, and is good with money and loans and banking and all that practical life stuff.

Holly took three classes, I think. Maybe two. Liked it; it wasn't difficult. There were people in class with her bemoaning the difficulty, and they had been in school for twelve years or more, taking math classes.

---

That was written in 2014. Their paid employment and their hobbies, since then, have involved some or all of logistics, statistics, financial accounting, coding/programming, inventory and cash handling. What they learned in class was the notation used to communicate mathematical ideas "on paper" in our culture.

Some of their facility might have been inherited genetically from their mathish dad. That's fair, too.

SandraDodd.com/math/schoolmath
photo by Shawn Smythe Haunschild

Scattering to learn

Part of a 2004 description of our unschooling home, when three kids and their friends were here:

They come here and we’re working a puzzle or building something and they’ll get into that, too. It’s fun. We do things that are just fun. You can hardly walk by without picking it up and messing with it, too.

Sometimes, someone—my husband and one of the kids—will be doing something in one room and in the next room, some other friends are over and they are playing a video game and in another room or outside, another kid and somebody else are doing something else.

That also is the idea of the open classroom. Their ideal was not to be sitting at desks reading but to sit in a soft place, in a dark place, in a private place or wherever you wanted to, to read. So they tried to have interesting places where kids could get away from the other kids.


Sound file and transcript, of "Improving Unschooling" interview: SandraDodd.com/radiotranscript
photo by Destiny Dodd, of Kirby Dodd and their daughter, Kirby Dodd.

Learning what they know

"How do you know they're learning?" The people who ask that question are looking at the world through school-colored glasses. Those same parents knew when their children could use a spoon. They knew when the child could drink out of a cup. They knew when walking and talking and bike riding had been learned.

Here's how I learned that Kirby knew about the Huns: He was waiting for me to give him a ride, while I was talking on the phone to a local mom who was considering homeschooling. We were discussing unit studies, and I said they weren't necessary, that people just keep learning their whole lives. "You can't finish China," I said, and Kirby commented dryly, "The Huns tried that."

So, on my mental checklist, I note Kirby identifying the Huns, using the word in a sentence, knowing a dab about Chinese history. But was I testing? Was he reporting? Neither. He was just making a joke. And it was sufficient for me to discover what he knew.

SandraDodd.com/playing
photo by Jihong Tang

Hearts renewed

I wrote this verse for a Christmas card we made when my children were eight, five, and three years old.

Abundant joy,    a special toy,       warmth and firelight,          carols at twilight; Memories of old,    children to hold,       comforting food,          and hearts renewed.

More about that, written in 2014
art by Kirby Dodd, in 1994,
with printing and finish work by relatives and friends
Warm, glowing traditions

Be careful with "can't"

About reading:

English has one word that, unfortunately, helps charge this whole subject with emotion and doom. I learned this from an exchange with Marty, when he was four. I wrote it down at the time, and have quoted it a few times since, but I've never connected it with reading until now.

Wed, Jul 28, 1993
The first thing [Marty] said after “good morning” was “Mom, if you count to infinity, is it illegal?”

I explained to him about infinity, with a million plus one and a “gadillion” plus one. He was fine with the explanation, and I said, “Who told you you can’t count to infinity?” He said I did, so I explained the difference in things that are impossible and things that are illegal (have consequences)

"Can't" sounds pretty permanent. We were careful not to say, in our kids' hearing "Marty can't read." We would cheerfully say, "Marty doesn't read yet" (or Kirby, or Holly). With that, every time it was discussed we were clearly indicating that we thought the child WOULD read before long, and it was not a concern. They were certainly learning in many other ways, as anyone close enough to discuss their reading could see!

SandraDodd.com/r/persephonics
photo by Sandra Dodd

Priorities, influence, reading

A story from when Kirby was in his late teens:

Kirby was reading aloud the other night from a gaming manual to that big batch of guys who went to see Pirates of Penzance with us. Kirby and Marty really wanted to go to the play. As things turned out, three unexpected others went with us. That was fine. They went because they were involved in a roleplaying game, and wanted to continue it later, and because they trust Kirby and Marty's judgement about what's cool.

They had fun, and came back and played several hours longer afterward. But Kirby, one of the youngest of the seven there, and one of the "least educated," was reading difficult material aloud to attentive others, one of whom... has a college degree, one of whom has two years of college, and none of whom had any reason to say, "Let me read that." He could've been reading it for taping, or radio. Expressive, clear, no hesitation.

He's confident in his skin, in his mind, and in his being.
He's not afraid of his parents.
He goes to sleep happy and he wakes up glad.

My priorities could have been different.

---

Kirby is in his 30s now, married, and reads each night to two little girls. I wish I could hear it sometimes.

SandraDodd.com/priorities
photo by Sandra Dodd— not of that night's game, but there's Kirby in black to the right, and Marty in green, with other unschoolers

Bigger and better

A mom who's going to help a child learn from the whole wide world should herself become ever increasingly comfortable with what all is IN the whole wide world, and how she can help bring her child to the world and the world to her child.

Unschooling should and can be bigger and better than school.

If it's smaller and quieter than school, the mom should do more to make life sparkly.

SandraDodd.com/strew/how
photo by Kirby Dodd

Clearly and plainly honest

Deb Lewis wrote:

A child who can't trust his parents, not because of any malicious intent on the part of his parents, but because of repeated false information, is at risk of not seeking help from his parents when he really needs it. Who will he turn to? It might be someone who does not have his best interests at heart.

Truth is a sensitive thing and a parent's fear might prevent her from thinking and being clearly and plainly honest.

—Deb Lewis

SandraDodd.com/trust
photo by Kirby Dodd

A peaceful day

I think it's harmful to stir up outrage in and among parents of young children. It's okay for unschooled children to have a peaceful day even though there are others outraged elsewhere.

Outrage is not a virtue. Donald Duck should not be your role model.

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Later note: In a larger context, peace shouldn't be limited to only unschooled children. And it shouldn't be limited to children.

SandraDodd.com/peace
photo by Kirby Dodd